It’s good for saints to pray for each other (Ja 5:16a), and effectual, fervent prayers of righteous souls can make a real difference. (16b) Paul asks his brothers to pray for himself and for those working alongside him (He 13:8), at times even begging in the strongest possible language. (Ro 15:30) So, is it reasonable to ask saints in Heaven to pray for us?
Though all saints are part of Christ’s body, the Church (Ep 5:25-27), including those in Heaven (He 12:23), there are significant difficulties with this practice.
Firstly, it presumes the souls to whom we’re praying actually are in Heaven, that they’re true believers. However, unless scripture explicitly affirms this it’s presumption. There’s nothing stopping God from working through an unregenerate soul (Samson? King Saul? Jonah? Nebuchadnezzar?) to accomplish His purposes. We can therefore safely claim salvation for only very few, such as Abraham (Lk 16:23), the Twelve (except Judas: (Jn 17:12)), Paul (2Ti 4:7-8), etc. For example, scripture doesn’t explicitly tell us that Mary, Christ’s mother, ever came to true faith; she evidently lived many years after His birth without it. (Mt 12:47-50) She’s likely in Heaven, but there’s no way to be sure until we get there.
Secondly, praying to Heavenly saints presumes they can hear us across the immense expanse of the universe, which is, again, presumption; there is zero indication of this in Scripture.
Further, if it’s right to pray to saints at all, it’s right for a billion souls to pray regularly to a given saint (e.g. Mary), yet this is essentially attributing infinite capability to a finite soul, elevating them to godlike status. Distinguishing this from an affirmation of omnipresence and omniscience is semantics at best; the practice is therefore evidently unreasonable and problematic.
So, given such uncertainties, why would we spend any time at all asking saints in Heaven to pray for us? (Co 4:5) If it could be a waste of time (and it certainly could be), can it be excellent? (Php 1:10a) If we can’t prove it’s the will of God (Ro 12:2), why would anyone recommend it? On what authority?
If it’s good and right to ask saints in Heaven to intercede for us, and we’re unable to verify this from Scripture alone, Scripture must be incomplete as a lamp to our feet, and a light to our path. (Ps 119:105) We then require other (and necessarily fallibly human) sources of light. Yet this violates 2Ti 3:16-17; a fundamental claim that Scripture alone is sufficient to perfect us, to equip us to all good works. It’s one thing for teachers to show us how to rightly interpret Scripture, it’s another thing altogether to require secret, extra-biblical revelation or knowledge to live a godly life: this is Gnosticism.
Finally, since Christ Himself (He 7:25) and the Holy Spirit (Ro 8:26) are always praying for us, why would we need others in Heaven to intercede for us as well? They certainly aren’t any closer to God than God Himself.
God knows what we need before we ask (Mt 6:8); our prayers don’t inform God. Evidently, the purpose of prayer is primarily to engage us in pursuing and experiencing God’s will, which makes sense for believers on Earth. When we ask according to His will, we know He hears and answers us. (1Jn 5:14-15)
In presuming Christ came to start a new religion, which appears to be inherent in such ideas, we invariably find ourselves in error. He didn’t. (Mt 5:19) Ultimately, if what we’re saying and doing isn’t grounded in Torah itself, it’s darkness. (Is 8:20)
Luke 15:7 – “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance.”
This verse explicitly shows how those in heaven are alive and aware of what happens here on earth, so much so that they celebrate when we make decisions to give ourselves over to Christ. However, this does not imply the saints themselves can hear us when we pray, or that they are actually able to observe us in real time. We don’t know how these saints become aware of our behavior; God or angels may update them on what’s going on down here.
Revelation 8:3 – “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quality of incense to offer with the prayers of the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.”
Some might say this reinforces the notion that prayers can be offered to the Father from those already in heaven. However, this golden vial evidently symbolizes the prayers of ALL saints of ALL time, and seems to me to be part of a unique, future event related to the final judgements of God. I think this particular event may depict God calling to remembrance all of the godly prayers of all saints of all time, especially prayers for divine judgment, that God’s will be done and that He be glorified, etc., as He ramps up for the judgments in the 7 trumpets. I see no indication in this text that God hasn’t already heard and answered these prayers in time past. I don’t think it is reasonable to deduce from this text that angels are continually in the habit of providing a conduit of prayers between us and the Father.
Hebrews 12:1 – “Therefore, since we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that has been set before us.”
This is likely the best biblical text in support of Saintly Intersession, but I don’t think it implies the saints in heaven can observe us in detail in real time. The key phrase may be, “we also” in verse 1: Paul seems to be saying we ourselves are part of the cloud of witnesses observing the saints of old, yet we didn’t observe them in real time; we’re witnesses of their behavior through God documenting it for us. God is evidently documenting all the details of every single person’s life and will reveal it all at the Great White Throne of Judgment, one life at a time. In this way, we all have a great cloud of witnesses, effectively the entire universe, even though we’re unable to comprehend the behavior of millions of people all at once in real time.
Tim,
EVEN IF observed in detail by those with the Lord — that does NOT mean they would commune with us in any fashion. The Torah teaches that: my study indicates.
Jesus spoke to Peter Flesh and Blood has Not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. Also we are admonished to Worshp GOD in spirit and in truth.
From Colossians – an easy favorite:
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility
and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not
holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Part of the point I make it, it does NOT matter if they can see what we are doing or even thinking —- our communion is With the Lord.
If I am missing something, let me know!
stephen
Thanks for the input, Stephen. I think the RCC doesn’t claim saints in Heaven would ever communicate with us (which would be necromancy), only that [1] they can hear us, and [2] asking them to pray for us is no different than asking saints on Earth to do so, and therefore commended in Scripture. I think it’s a very subtle line of reasoning, and dangerous due to the implications of many verses, such as the one in Colossians you note.
Placing our hope or confidence in anything or anyone else except God Himself is a type of idolatry: “My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.” (Ps 62:5)
Thinking saints in Heaven have special access to God, and that they can leverage this special access on our behalf, is one way of tempting us to put our hope in them instead of entirely in God.
The idea that a single merely human mind (e.g. Mary) could comprehend several billion prayers per day (10 million per second) and rightly process each one, knowing how to pray for each soul in each circumstance, while still focusing on the glories of God in worship, being entirely undistracted, taxed or overwhelmed by the process, is essentially to attribute a type of omnipotence and omniscience to it, a type of divinity. This borders on blasphemy, if it is not explicitly so. It is no wonder that many Roman Catholics worship Mary.
Another distinct difference between asking saints on Earth to pray for us, and asking saints in Heaven to do so, is that we may ask earthly saints to intercede for us without interrupting them or imposing on them. We can do this since the communication is two-way, bi-directional, and therefore subject to control by both parties.
However, speaking to saints in Heaven while having no idea what they are doing, and presuming they can indeed hear us, implies we are constantly interrupting them, distracting them from what they would otherwise be doing, and doing this without their permission.
In other words, if anyone at all may randomly command the attention someone else by interrupting them without their consent and permission, which must be the case if communication is only in one direction, it essentially disables them and renders them incapable of focusing on what they want to do.
Praying to saints in Heaven is essentially acting as if these souls have nothing else to do except attend to our individual, personal bidding, which is absurd.
The Heavenly saints are evidently utterly consumed with the presence of God, with adoring and worshipping and enjoying Him in His immediate presence in all His fullness, just like the four beasts and the twenty-four elders.
“And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, ‘Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.’ ” (Re 4:8-11)
As far as I can see from scriptures like this one, every heavenly being is intentionally and continually focused on the holiness, majesty and glory of God, unless God Himself bids them to do otherwise. Interrupting this pattern of attentive worship at our ignorant whim is presumptuous, selfish and harmful.
Some might reason that each Heavenly saint can somehow delay hearing our requests until they’re ready to attend to us, that our petitions essentially queue up in a line waiting for the saint to engage.
Yet this presumes the Heavenly saints can keep up with the backlog and respond for us in a reasonable amount of time, which again presumes they don’t have too many people praying to them and that they don’t have much else to do.
The obvious implication is that if our prayers queue up at all, such that we may not interrupt the Heavenly saints at will, we can never be confident any of our prayers to any of them will ever be heard within our lifetime. What’s the point of that?